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Bewegung von Artillerie (i.B. Berittene Artillerie)
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Drouot
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo, 17. April 2006 21:44 Beitrag speichern    Titel: brakes Antworten mit Zitat

Hi,

I think I am a specialist. I have been re-enacting the Guard foot artillery for 12yrs, and I am writing two or three books on the subject (french, prussian, rhinebund).

The guns in the period never had breaks. To slow the gun down the horse team slowed down their pace of movement. Guns never moved at anything more than the trot, even the horse artillery. The two horses attached to the limber first where the breaks of the gun. These horses are called wheelers. They took the strain of the breaking on the breast and buttock strap, which was made out of leather, the horses are made to sit back in the buttock strap to slow the gun. This is difficult to explain.

Also a gun (both hore and foot artillery) could not move more than 30km a day.

My re-enactment group has a horse team with 6 horses we use to pull our reconstructed full size and full weight 12-pdr. At a trot it takes probably 100meters to stop. At a walk about 20-50meters depending on the terrain. I am not sure if I can post a video of our horse team in action.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo, 17. April 2006 23:16 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

How do you come to the conclusion that horse artillery did never move at gallop?

For your amusement

Prussian Artillery Performance

Source – Malinowsy, von, Bonin von:
Geschichte der brandenburgisch – preußischen Artillerie, 1840 – 1842, three volumes, re – print LTR Verlag, Wiesbaden 1984


The authors, artillery officers, used all kinds of sources, archives, eye witness accounts and presented them in three volumes, so bear in mind, it is a secondary source.
They usually give a description of battles and clashes, with an emphasize on artillery, interesting are the remarks they add. I found them very critical in the use of artillery.
I just give some quotes – especially related to the horse artillery, and some other interesting views.
My own comments are marked with HKW. For these quotes I used volume three, which gives the fighting accounts

Battle of Zorndorf
25 / 8 / 1758

By this positioning, from the Prussian side, 80 heavy guns and out of them 60, along with 20 battalions and 56 squadrons concentrated against one point. (page 632)
The Prussian artillery took honourable part in this victory, by forming of big battery, good positioning of the guns, concentrating and maintaining the fire. (643)

Auerstädt
14 / 19 / 1806

It seams that the horse artillery did not take part in these attacks of about 20 squadrons, and that the force of Blücher had attached only the above mentioned lost horse battery.
(684)

Groß – Görschen
2 / 5 / 1813

Remarks:

The horse artillery was used in this battle like foot artillery, that means – send to the front, and without manoeuvring with the cavalry, deployed as positional artillery, only with the difference that they moved in the gallop.
The foot artillery used for the first time for more rapid execution, the mounting of their teams on the limbers and hand horses, in the now still existing regulations.
Foot note: At this opportunity the etat of the foot batteries was enlarged by additional 8 train soldiers and 20 horses, that of the horse battery by 2 train soldiers and 4 horses. The limber and packing pillows (Packkissen, I suppose what was carried at the back of the hand horse) received installations to move away the rank and file (Documents of the Gen. – Inspection of artillery)
(703)

To the history of the batteries

In the battle of Groß – Görschen the commander of the horse battery nr. 2, Premier – Lt. Hensel, was killed by a cannon ball, while he was moving it in gallop against the heavy batteries of the enemy.
(704)

Clash at Königswartha or Weißig
19 / 5 / 1813

The French battery of 6 cannons deployed galloping at the taken Eichenberge.
(706)

Bautzen
20 – 21 / 5 / 1813

(…) and along with the reserve cavalry the horse guards battery nr. 4, along with horse battery nr. 8 and 9, they received the order at the beginning of the battle to move in between the intervals of the fortified battery. (709 – 710)

The first corps of the enemy, accompanied by Saxon and French horse artillery advanced against Kreckwitz. (713)
(…)

To prevent being thrown by the Württemberger into the defile, he ordered (Zieten, HKW) the artillery major Braun, to bring forward the horse battery nr. 9 and the foot battery Nr. 11, with good effect despite these batteries were under fire from both flanks. (713)

The Württemberg cavalry would have had cut their (the batteries) retreat off if the Prussian cavalry would not have chased them away. (714)

The horse batteries Nr. 1 and Nr. 2 formed along with the light cavalry the rear guard of the withdrawing Prussians. They made a strong resistance on the heights of Kötitz. (714)

Clashes at Weißenberg and Reichenbach
22 / 5 7 1813

At the cavalry clash on these both locations both batteries (horse battery Nr. 1 and a Cossack battery, HKW) took part vigorously. Marshall Duroc (Duroc was grand maréchal du palais, HKW) and general Kirgener were killed, and general Bruyeres were shot off both legs. (716)


Katzbach
26 / 8 / 1813

The horse battery Nr. 2 was placed to defend the defiles behind the village Weinberg (723)

(Sacken concentrated in this battle 92 guns, HKW).

During the lively artillery fight general Blücher ordered a cavalry attack in the centre, which was followed by the horse artillery batteries nr. 1 and 2, in 150 paces distance. The ground was very soaked, the guns sank in almost half a feet, and for that only with utmost efforts the horses could get into a trot. The Prussian cavalry was repulsed. The horse battery nr. 1 was caught in the melee of the cavalry and lost, without being able to shoot, half of their guns, what happened partially by their own fault. Led by the battery commander, it was attacked from the enemy cavalry at the flank and ridden down by their own, and lost by that all its “fahrende Artilleristen (driving artillerymen, I think those who drove the artillery limbers, it seams that the Prussian made a distinction between these drivers and the usual train – also used in the artillery, HKW), which were cut down from their horses. (727 – 728)

(The horse battery nr. 2 could save themselves to the infantry because it was lagging more behind, HKW)

Remarks

The use of the artillery in this battle was not due new or excellent ideas, there the battery of 92 guns formed on the Taubenberge, remained mostly stationary. (729)

Despite the difficulties of the ground the artillery proved, that when it was ordered to do, a lot of mobility(…) The cavalry did not make use of the horse artillery, so that those could not make examples of their true destination. (729)

About the history of the batteries

(The 6 pound battery nr. 15 was for the first time in battle, HKW).
One half battery (1 howitzer, 3 cannons) were ordered to shot from a designated height, the flank of the enemy’s artillery with grape shot. The guns advanced galloping into the position, which their leading officers had made a reconnaissance. (731)
This half battery soon was going back, because it was attacked by the enemy’s cavalry in their flank, it was not possible to give them a covering force and it had when advancing got the order, to stand only so long as circumstances permitting. The rank and file mounted (731, 732)

The 6 pound foot battery nr. 24 (Captain Vahrenkampff) was formed by 6 light English 6 pound with block carriages and 2 Prussian 7 pound howitzer with wooden axle (one of the great drawbacks of Prussian artillery, HKW) and carried English ammunition wagons.
All 8 NCOs of the battery were mounted (732 – 733)
(…)
When the fire of some skirmishers wounded some gunners it was limbered up to withdraw and with soldiers mounted they were trotting out of the reach of the musket fire. (…)
; the battery could take on with any horse battery, which had an ordeal with their heavy guns on the terrible terrain. (734)
(…) The battery bivouacked in the night at the battle field. The horses did sink in down to their bellies and at the next morning they had to be dug out. (735 – 736)

Advance guard clash at Bunzlau
30 / 8 / 1813

The horse batter nr. 2 advanced galloping behind the height close to the right bank of the Bober. (749)
(At this action a Prussian lieutenant continued to fire with a gun taking 3 NCOs and 2 rank and file from the Leib – Füsilier – Bataillon, HKW)


Battle of Dennewitz
6 / 9 / 1813

3. Corps at Nieder – Görsdorf

The with a horse battery moving Leib Husaren, which were advanced more at the left over the ground (Grund, I don’t know what it means in this context, could be anything, HKW) were taken back, at which especially the horse battery had labours to come over this ground.
(753)

Advance guard clash at Bautzen
12 / 9 / 1813

The Prussian horse battery nr. 2 was advancing in the trot through this defile (debouchee, HKW) , deployed in gallop at the left side of the street and moved in that speed, covered by cavalry, onwards to the enemy. Before the battery did unlimber, the enemy was withdrawing quickly his artillery behind the height to pass the defile at Geda. The battery nr. 2 moved at gallop and march! March! close to the entrance of Geda and disarrayed by their lively ball fire the fleeing enemy. (737)

Battle of Leipzig

The Prussian horse battery nr. 6 did show honourable conduct today. To gain time to move the battery away, it went against the enemy tirailleurs with their horse artillery gunners and did throw them back.
(773)

The 1. Prussian Army corps did open the campaign in August 1813 with 106 guns, (…) so that the corps arrived at the Rhin with only 12 guns. (773)

Clash at La Chaussée
3 / 2 / 1814

The beaten cavalry (the French, HKW) assembled at the heights behind La Chaussée, whereby they were shot at and grenades thrown successfully by the horse battery nr. 3
(780)

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di, 18. April 2006 0:11 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Artillery Antworten mit Zitat

Thanks for that, really great information Very Happy I will put into my forthcoming book.

French General Gassendi in his 1810 and 1819 manuals for artillery recomends that the fast moving speed is the trot (7 miles an hour for a loaded horse), only exceptional circumstances the canter (10 miles an hour for a loaded horse), never the gallop (15 miles an hour for a loaded horse) as the horses will be blown before the desired location is reached and would not be able to move the guns in retreat or advance as they would not have sufficient time to recover from the charge. This is very practical advice. An example that we should all know is the charge of the union brigade at waterloo, the horses been blown in the charge, and not having sufficient strength to escape a counter charge.

French cavalry manuals recommend only charging at the gallop for the last 100yards of a charge, and to start the advance at the walk, then the trot , canter at 500yards. This kept the formation tight, so a solid wall of horses would hit the enemy rather than the fastest horses. ALso we must remember that when a horse artillery battery advanced, it was not just the guns that moved, but also the gunners (either mounted or on vehicles) as well as the ammunition caissons etc. The battery had to move at a controlable speed, the gallop is not controlable

In Britain the artillery harness was a modified form of the civilian harness and could not take the strain of stopping a gun from speed. The fastest speed was the canter.

Foot artillery moved at 4-5miles an hour, horse artillery according to Gassendi, William Congreve, Liechtenstein was 7-10 miles an hour.

British artillery, and also Bavaria when using the Rumford guns, would have moved fastest as they had the largest wheel size in use, a nominal 5foot (english). At the canter, a british horse artillery gun could cover 100yards a minute, the fastest speed that they ever moved at.

On the march it was recomended that a horse team be stopped for 30minutes after 1 hours march, and in bad weather for over 2 hours. This slowed down the rate of movement per day to 20 or so kilometers.

Hope this helps explain why the gallop was not used Laughing

Has anyone got information on Bavarian artillery? especially Jakob Manson, and Lt-General Schweinchen. I have information on Rumfords guns (copies of the english block trail system), which I think were the point of inspiration for the guns of Rottiger in the Hannoverian service from 1803, clarification would be good on this point also Confused

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di, 18. April 2006 8:47 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Bascially I agree with your assesement that even cavalry did very rarely do galloping, and that also only over a short distance, all what I can add to this discussion you could read above, instances where horse artillery did gallop, did exist - so they could do it and did it, regardless of manuals.
To find out how often they ddi it, it would be essential to read all memoires of artillery officers and gunners, as well as any other memoires of other arms branches who might comment on that, like Girod de l'Ains comments on Friedland and the out look of French gunners.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di, 18. April 2006 8:54 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Re: Artillery Antworten mit Zitat

Drouot hat Folgendes geschrieben:
.... and Lt-General Schweinchen.


is this a real name? or just a joke-name like "miss piggy"? Laughing

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di, 18. April 2006 21:36 Beitrag speichern    Titel: artillery Antworten mit Zitat

I fully agree that horse artillery did occaisionally gallop into position, but finding out the number of occaisions when this occured is difficult.

I have read what memoires exist for the French artillery (noel, Pion des Loches, Boulart) as well as of english officers, as well as the works of Carl Smola writing in the 1820's. But they add little into the discussion beyond theory. Smola does site some references for the austrian cavalry artillery galloping into position. French General Valee writing in 1824 notes that Austria, Prussia, russia, poland, britain etc could move their artillery at the gallop, but the french could not. Valee went on to re-design the french artillery and introduced the stock trail in 1827, which had been adopted for mountain artillery work in 1810 in spain, but that is off topic somewhat

I am trying to find if any russian sources about friedland exist, and of course any other french memoire which mentions artillery other than those that are well known.

Lt General Schweinchen, yes I realised it may be a joke name, but this is the name given by a Wurtemberg source. Very Happy I can look the reference out.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di, 18. April 2006 22:00 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

What about :

Guns in the desert, by Doguereau, translated by Rosemary Brindle, Westport 2002
and
Journal du Cannoier Bricard, 1792 - 1802, Paris 1891

I find it very interesting that the French Horse Artillery, even occationally could not gallop when matters demanded it.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di, 18. April 2006 23:15 Beitrag speichern    Titel: artillery Antworten mit Zitat

I had not come accross those two references, I will look them up. I have read a number of letters written by artillerymen, but the letters talk more about everydaylife, hopes, fears and aspirations rather than battles etc. Perhaps one of the better letter writers for the french was Felix Deblais, who does mention artillery from his point of view of an infatryman. Griois is also of use, likewise marmonts memoires.

Valee in 1824 is at pains to point out that a gun could move at speed, but the ammunition wagons could not move at anything faster than the trot in case they rolled over, etc. He notes that it was all well and good being able to deploy guns at speed, but if the ammunition could not be brought up to the guns, then that rate of movement was usless, as without ammunition the gun could do nothing. He cites several examples of this, where the french ammunition wagons could not move due to the terrain or could not keep pace with the artillery in line of march or battlefield movements. He recomended that the guns should not move faster than the ammunition.

France was one of the few countries not to have a limber mounted ammunition box, which meant a gun could carry 60or so rounds of ammunition and fight independantly from the ammunition wagons. French guns were served with ammunition from the wagons, which had to follow a gun in all its movements, which the vehicles were incapable of. The ready use ammunition on a french gun was carried on the gun carriage, and regulations of the period say that it was never to be used, only at last resort once the ammunition wagons were empty, or if used to be maintained at all times, so as to keep a reserve always at hand. This is why french horse artillery could not deploy at the gallop by other countries could. French artillery equipment was not the best designed system in use.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi, 19. April 2006 8:40 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

@Drouot

I was under the impression that the French introduced with the new artillery system the ammunition box for their limbers, at least there is some pictural evidence, or are those all captured Austrian limbers in French service?

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi, 19. April 2006 11:03 Beitrag speichern    Titel: French artillery Antworten mit Zitat

In 1803 when the new system of AnXI was introduced, new limbers, new gun carriages, new gun tubes etc were introduced. The guns had 5ft wheels and 4ft 6inch limber wheels. The limber had a very large ammunition box mounted on it, which could carry 60+ rounds. This limber was known as a la Bavoroise, though it matches Austrian designs more than bavarian. The guns used were 6-pdr and 12-pdr complemented by 7-pdr howitzer and 10-pdr howizter.

In November 1805 Napoleon ordered that guns and equipment of System AnXi were to be no longer produced and ordered the first inspector of artillery General Songis de Courbons and General J Gassendi the heard of artillery at the ministry of war to introduce a new system of artillery. Gassendi published his reports in January 1808.

In this report, new carriages, limbers, caissons and gun tubes were introduced, 6-pdr, 12-pdr, 5.72inch (24-pdr) and 6.13 inch (32-pdr) howitzers. Gassendi ordered that all rolling stock of AnXI was to be withdrawn and replaced by 1810, or converted to the new system. Likewise any remaining Gribeauval equipment from 1777 was to be withdrawn and replaced with new equipment. A latter edict was published in February 1810, noting that not all guns had been replaced, everything should be to the new system by 1812. These new gun carriages look like a gribeauval gun, but have a different elevation system, the trail end is a different shape.

In 1815 when the anciene regime returned to power, the Gribeauval 8-pdr was re-introduced for horse artillery, and any new carriages built were to be of the gribeauval designs. The 6-pdr remained in service till 1827 and was not abandoned in 1816. In 1822 new wheels (heavy and light 5ft and one weight of 4ft 6wheels), axels and limbers were fitted to the french artillery, effectively going back to designs of AnXI.

Contemporary prints showing the limber mounted box, presumably show SystemAnXi equipment which did not get converted, captured austrian, equipment or French allie artillery like bavaria and saxony. Albrecht adam shows the limber box in a print of 1812. I also know of prints from 1806/07 which also show the limber box, but welcome any further illustrations.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi, 19. April 2006 11:56 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

I did mean this type of limber - system, a combination of the old ammunition chest - placed on the limber?


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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi, 19. April 2006 11:57 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

and from the top


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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi, 19. April 2006 12:11 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Yes. This limber is that of system AnXI, which was no longer prodcued from 1805 and to be replaced by 1810, and re-introduced in a modified form in 1822/24.

Do you have more of these images? Laughing

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi, 19. April 2006 13:53 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Certainly I do, they are plates from a defunct old French magazine, but seem to be quite genuine.
I am however confused, there I believed that this limber continued to be in French service, and that it looked differently to the "Bavaroise" type - at least comparing them with the artillery modells in the Gribeauval collection in the French Army museum at Paris, moreover there this type of limber doesn't look like a Bavarian limber at all.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Do, 20. April 2006 11:30 Beitrag speichern    Titel: Limbers Antworten mit Zitat

The models in the musee de l'armee only show examples of guns in service and experimental guns, so finding out if a model is of a gun that was used or a gun that never got beyond the drawing board is difficult.

The drawing you present is by Ballada and is taken from the table of constructions for 1803 (system anxi).

The limber box was discontinued in 1808 by order of the minister of Artillery. the General Inspector and Napoleon acting on their guidlines. As I said earlier, it was to be phased out of use by 1810, the order being given again at this time, saying that all AnXI equipment was to be no longer in service by 1812. The artillery returned to the limber without box and the small box mounted on the carriage in 1808. Confused

The french artillery committee call the limber of the bavarian type. It does not match rumfords equipment and not Mansons (which I have only seen from two paintings and no detailed drawings).

I would greatly appreciate seeing copies of the artillery drawings from the defunct french magazine. Laughing

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